ryansutter.net

Ryan, I just came across your Blog. I am a JW. It appears that you might be disfellowshiped or disassociated. Not really sure but it doesn't matter.

My brother is disfellowshipped. I love him very much. I don't know you or what happened to your brother but I know what it's like to lose someone very close to you, someone that you love.

There is nothing I can say or anyone at this point to prove anything about Jehovah to you. If you truly are confused about Jehovah and whether or not Jehovah's Witnesses is the true religion there is only one way to find out.

Prayer.

Pray to God. Whomever you think him to be. Ask him for an answer. Ask him to lead you to him. That is the only way. If ANY creator exists, and if you pray to find him, he will make himself known to you. If you are honest with yourself, and if in your heart you are truly searching and not merely interested in a display of words here on your blog, you will find everything you are looking for.

I agree with this, however I understand Ryan's change. I also was a witness with Ryan in his younger years and although I was never disfellowshipped or disassociated i did choose to go away and stop, not for these reasons but rather by being abandoned by the very people I loved most at a terrible time in my life. You see most witnesses tend to stand back if mud is thrown to keep themselves clean, even if most or all the mud is ficticious or simply put "lies". Witnesses who under "normal" circumstances are the most loving of all people tend to become cold to the point of being unbearable when they hear something whether true or false from another witness. Something very strange though is that I always fealt that Jehovah was still with me even in times of doubt and I tried to return over and over but things only got worse. I began to feel as if I had been "handed over to Satan" for no reason except another's decision to ruin my life at all costs, and did. I then also turned to a worldly person for love and only drifted further away.

Death of loved ones affects us all different. I have been through the same as you Ryan before becoming a witness and it is a very painful experience. I also kept asking many of these questions after thinking logically. Such as the dinosaurs, where did they come from? Why are there signs of tools and utinsils found in archeology and human footprints that are tens of thousands of years old without human remains to match the same time periods? As well as I also have prayed many times expecting an answer that I never fealt I received. However Ryan I truly believe that the large majority of Jehovah's Witnesses are the most wonderful people in all the earth. And should armageddon come as the bible promises and I still believe strongly is very near, we all need to answer to the God of the bible. I ask that you please only look at a few different angles and one being that usually the witnesses straighten out their beliefs after they find that they are in error, as the scriptures teach us they will. And quite frankly if these claims that scientists make are true it will be uncovered in due time.

One claim I have always agreed with science on is the age of the earth, however after doing a personal study I have learned that there are many time lapses within scripture that cannot be argued such as in the creation account. There was eons of time within the first few sentences of the bible, and bible concordances will reveal this to you if only you look. Ryan you were always one of the most intelligent people I have known and as I see you still are. Prayer will help if you still even as much as "wonder" if maybe he is real. Truly do you wish to give up the opportunity to see Rhett again "if" there is credence to the fact that Jehovah does exist? There is a lot to consider here. The family you feel you lost still loves you the same, I happen to know this to be "FACT", not merely a figment of some imagination.

I used to wonder if the entire spirit world was sort of like the dream world. When a person dreams and if good you don't want to awake, but when bad it is always wonderful to come back to the realization that it was all a nightmare. But reguardless during the time of the dream it is all very real, almost as if we are within another realm or dimension. Or you look at a computer and at times the vast space within almost seems as another dimension as it goes on and on within the internet almost as a world in itself. Think Ryan, if this all seems real and truly is, maybe God is in his own space taking up a life that you cannot see as a "proof" until the time comes to be discovered as such. And the bible considers this time awaited as "faith" that he is real. Please try to pray in your own closed room and then give him the opportunity to show you what he wants to. I am living proof that he never abandons you completely and never forgets the good you have done. Ily Ryan and I know this is not much as I have proven to be the guy that the burn out from the movie "The Breakfast Club" said... "could fall of the face of the earth and nobody would even care". But I care and I miss, and the emptiness never goes away nor is worth discarding your family over the contrivance of men above God. I can only say that I believe he is real, and even when I doubt I know I am nothing but dust that is allowed to breath for but a few short years if he is not real.

I agree, it is sad that it hasn't brought me to Jehovah. It's sad because his followers then feel they have to treat me like a dangerous person. It's sad because some of those followers are people I love very very very much, people I need in my life now that my brother is dead, people I would die for.

Sadder still, is the wasted potential of beautiful, talented and valuable human beings who dedicate their lives to myths of the supernatural and promises of deliverance based on human inventions. How sad to spend your life dedicated to a paradise that isn't coming. How sad to raise your children to fear "worldly" people and to hope for Armageddon.

There is not one part of this whole scenario that isn't sad. If it were true, and I didn't want to be part of it, that would be sad in the way you meant. But, it's not true, so I CAN'T be part of it and instead it's sad for all these other reasons.

Would I believe in Jehovah if he brought about armageddon and all that? Yes. A real, honest to goodness act of god would convince me. It's not a desire not to believe, it's a frustrated desire to believe on evidence.

Ryan... Everything you write on this is all really good. You have challenged everything you have ever learned. But, it is sad that it hasn't brought you closer to Jehovah. We all want you back but the way I feel is that if you really don't believe it then there is no point for you to come back. I love you Ryan. My whole life I have known you and have been close to your whole family. I hope one day you do come to the conclusion that Jehovah is real and that you find that proof you are looking for. I have a question when you went door-to-door the reason we went out was to preach about God's Kingdom, The paradise. Do you still believe that this world will go on forever? And if Armegeddon, that the bible talks about, does come... Will that be enough of a proof to you???

Ryan's thoughts, and words, say it all much better than, I ever could. I can personally relate to all he has said. I too was born and raised a JW. I can to my conclutions abosolutly seperately from Ryan. From birth, it was ingrained into the synaptic path ways of my brain, that “Truth” and “integerty” were of the utmost importance. Those are powerful concepts to teach a child.
The “closed universe thinking” of the WB&T society, is who is to blame. They have been evolving their interpetation of “Truth” for a long time, under the guise of “ The one true religion”. The bible say's a lot of useful things, but it's the WB&T society, who is the Men “behind the curtain”. For every scripture they use, they will put their spin on it, interlocking them for their poticial agenda. “No matter how well meaning they are.” They will rewrite history if it suties them, and justify it as “New light”.
If anything is, “measurable and repeatable” is that not a “fact or a Truth” When do, “facts or truths” no longer become “facts or truths”? The answer is, when it interfers with the interpretations of their teachings. A person must look at “All the facts”, this a “Huge threat” to their belief system.
Oh, here it comes! One can, with extreme accuruacy, perdict that at least one of them will respond that with a series of pre-programmed answers to the effect of, that it is the “The bible that says this, and or that.” The bible contains useful and inspiring items, I will not say otherwise. However, It is the WB&T society who are interpreting it, and sponsoring the 5 meetings a week brain washing sessions. They have spent decades creating a web of doctrine, like a house of cards, one blind leap of faith built on another. So what you get is a perfectionistic system that no one can live up to. It is ultimately, going to have you waiting, while your life passes you by.
I am not an enemy to your belief system, Balance, or Jehovah, either, “that is The JW interpretation meant to try and protect and justify your belief system.”

“ Faith is a delicate thing, and it is not worth taking a baseball bat to it. These days you are that baseball bat. You can not seem to leave the topic alone and if I see you on the streets then I am sure that this conversation will arise, why do I want to go through that, it is easier on me spiritually AND emotionally to cross the other way.”

With all due respect to the writer of the above quote, Faith or confidence, should never become a “delicate thing.” Another side effect of a perfectionistic belief system, “it just spreads you to thin.” When a belief system becomes so Fanatical, that you turn your back on those you love, it is sad and tragic.

I do not speak for Ryan, I speak for myself. We all want hope, and we all want to feel loved, and have balance in our lives, but not at the cost of “The truth” “all the facts.” I was taught to follow the truth, I came to the same conclusions as he did.

First things first. I am not an enemy of your belief system. Reason, logic and critical analysis are simply my tools for understanding life. If reason, logic and critical analysis prove detrimental to your "fragile" faith, then perhaps you need to ask yourself why, if that faith is actually supposed to be based on reality. Reality always stands up to reason, logic and critical analysis. I'm not the enemy of your faith, reality is. I'm just a guy asking how to live in reality. If the questions I ask are ones you cannot answer and if that makes you uncomfortable, that is an unfortunate side effect but you really ought to be able to answer those questions if you plan on basing your life on the beliefs that arise out of them.

Secondly. By what right does a person who spends their time going door to door in an attempt to convince other people that their beliefs are true dare to imply that I have no right to discuss "the topic"? I spent the first 30 years of my life discussing it and you bring it into people's homes on a daily/weekly/monthly basis. How dare you imply that I should have just swallowed my convictions and shut up? What gives you the right to suggest that I should have simply abandoned my search for truth when I found out you didn't have it? I ask for proof from anybody who makes any claim. Jehovah's Witnesses are not special except that I spent so many years among them and my family is still there. If I ask questions on my own website in my own forum that you cannot answer that does NOT make me a nuclear bomb or a baseball bat. You have every right not to be here.

Finally. Your implication that your emotional "faith" gives you a monopoly on truth is truly insulting not just to me but to about 99.9% of the worlds population who think Jehovah's Witnesses are wrong and the 67% of it that think Christianity is wrong. We all have a right, a duty and an obligation to inquire into our belief systems and to verify the truth of them. Not just to "keep convincing ourselves" that we're right, but really ask whether or not we have the right to claim that we are correct.

"If a man, holding a belief which he was taught in childhood or persuaded of afterwards, keeps down and pushes away any doubts which arise about it in his mind, purposely avoids the reading of books and the company of men that call into question or discuss it, and regards as impious those questions which cannot easily be asked without disturbing it--the life of that man is one long sin against mankind." - William Clifford, 1877

I am quite capable of spending time around people who believe differently than I do (on any subject) without ever mentioning it. I need not discuss "the topic" in general company. But, here, on this page, is my RELIGION BLOG with the subtitle "Don't read this if you don't want to know." This is different. This is my well labeled forum for this topic. It's ridiculous to fear me walking down the street or talking about Macs over coffee. I don't bite, I just disagree and discuss it here, not everywhere. Your fear is unjustified and if I can ask questions that your faith cannot answer, that is really not about you. It's about my inalienable human right to search for answers and your need to look deeper into your beliefs.

You've got answers. You believe them. That doesn't make them true or false, so analysis needs to happen. I say so, it hurts you. That is not my fault and you have no right to fear me or ask me to shut up here in my own forum while you insist on going into the homes of others to convince people that your particular member of the old Canaanite pantheon is actually the real one and the other 70 were the imaginary ones. You evangelize, I write, we both think we're in the right, only one of us is afraid of what the other has to say. I think that speaks volumes.

You said : "If the Organization would just stop claiming that they have the one Truth and that those of us who are unconvinced are to be shunned, that would go a long way towards reasonableness."

The organization does not make the claim that there is only one true religon -- the bible does. Ephesians 4:5 - "one Lord, one faith, one baptism".

If we didn't believe that we have that "one faith" then we would all be on the Ryan bandwagon. So your request is not feasible.

Do we want to shun you? Not at all. Why do we? You know this, but I will indulge anyways. We, including you, chose to dedicate our lives to Jehovah. To serve him and be loyal to him above all others. You have taken the stance to be an enemy of Jehovah, and therefore our loyalty demands that we recognize Jehovah above you.


Just becuase you have chosen not to believe in him, does not mean that we do not, nor does it mean that we are less then you because we do. You state that you can not be honest to yourself and serve Jehovah without irrefutable proof of his existence, fine. We all get it. But we can not accept you, as though nothing has changed, and still be honest to our convictions either. That is incompatible.

We do not shun those who do not share our beliefs, we shun those who have chosen to be an enemy to our beliefs. If you had "drifted away" , stopped attending meetings and had just gone inactive, I would dare say that most people would have remained close to you and encouraged you, but you had to go and drop a nuclear bomb on everything and then you have the nerve to ask why we don't want to have anything to do with you??

Faith is a delicate thing, and it is not worth taking a baseball bat to it. These days you are that baseball bat. You can not seem to leave the topic alone and if I see you on the streets then I am sure that this conversation will arise, why do I want to go through that, it is easier on me spiritually AND emotionally to cross the other way.

We all love you Ryan, and all this is even more difficult with the loss of Rhett. I am sorry that you feel that belief in God is not an option for you, I am sorry that Jehovah was never real enough to you to keep you from taking this path in life.

Most of all I am sorry that you and I can not get together for dinner, or at a coffee shop and talk about the latest new gadget, or how much we hate that Mac's are going to run on intel, or how the latest song or creative venture your doing is going.

I miss all those things, I miss you. However, as long as you continue to assail my God, you can not be welcome in my life, not matter how much it hurts to shut you out.

I appreciate that you came here and at least attempted to discuss this.

There is a lot I could say, but I think my point is already well made.

The only thing I ask of you is that you not think of me in terms of Satanic apostasy. An inability to believe without reason may be consider a personality flaw to you, but it is how I have always been. If reason can't bring me back to Jehovah's Witnesses, I won't be back, because I refuse to be unreasonable or make the claim that I have found the "one True Religion" and that the others are "Babylonish False Religion", when that claim is not able to be backed up by evidence. I consider that to be arrogance, of the highest order and humility and honesty won't let me do that.

If the Organization would just stop claiming that they have the one Truth and that those of us who are unconvinced are to be shunned, that would go a long way towards reasonableness. But, no claim of being the one true religion without reason can be anything I can support and it hurts. Badly.

Well since this isn't appropriate anyway, I will end with this though.

I agree with you that we can not throw the blanket of faith over everything and step back and say see, I'm right and your wrong. No one has ever told you that in the first place.

The bible also makes it very clear that we are to investigate our convictions, keep on proving that we are in the truth.

But what you fail to see is the balance, while faith does not cover everything it is required for somethings. For instance -- God has no beginning. We could never understand that, so we accept it on faith.

We are involved in a trial and we must choose the side that we want to be on, if all the answers were laid out for us then is that a fair trial? Jehovah has given us enough information to mae an informed descision, based on evidence AND faith that he exists and that he is the one true God deserving of our worship.

Creation continues to glorify God, our morality glorifies God, our inborn desires for everlasting life and our complete refusal to accept death as natural all glorify God. These are not things that we evolved, these are things that God gave us as gifts.

God is real, Satan is real, they are both hoping you will take thier side, and those are the only two sides available. Satan would like you to think that there are more, but they are all his.

I hope you find the answers your looking for.

Let's start with the parts we agree on and work from there.

I agree with you that the existence of morality requires an explanation. I even agree that innate morals, created in us by a divine being, are a possible explanation for the existence of morality. It seems to me that the reasoning is very similar to the idea that creation proves the existence of god. I say the reasonings are similar, because they both consist of observing something complex and seemingly inexplicable and putting forth what seems to be an intuitively obvious answer. The diversity of life and sheer scope of the universe are astounding and stagger the mind. They cry out for an explanation. So does morality. In both cases, for the majority of man's written history, that answer has been supernatural, the work of god, gods or goddesses.

But, I ask you, does your intuition lead you to correct answers, answers that can be trusted to be true without verification? If you simply look at the sky you would think there is one. A sky, I mean. For most of man's history they have assumed that there really is a blue ceiling up there. There isn't. It's an optical illusion. The atmosphere begins, invisibly, at the ground. You can go up and up and up and you'll never reach the "sky" because sitting at your computer reading this, you are in it. Every child's intuitive understanding of this is wrong. Similarly, people's intuitive guess about how televisions, computers, the Internet and even their own bodies are wrong most of the time. Our intuitive understandings of time and gravity, are wrong. How do we know the earth is round, that air exists, that the moon revolves around the earth? We only know through investigation of the phenomena and a willingness to admit when our intuitive understanding jumped to a conclusion that was unwarranted.

Now, I said all of that because it is key to how I approach this question. I don't trust in myself, my heart, my intuition. The heart is treacherous, who can know it? So, with a question like this I do the following. I place possible explanations out there and I test to see which ones conform best to the evidence observed. Which is the best explanation for what we see?

In the case of morality, there are several possible explanations. First, morality is an innate trait designed and given to us by our creator. Second, morality developed according to evolutionary processes. Third, morality is neither innate nor evolutionary but is a societal convention developed to keep order and structure but is so deeply ingrained in us at an early stage that we feel as if it is innate. Fourth, some combination of the first three explanations. I could go on. It's not a situation where two options are enough. It is a puzzle and it should be analyzed.

I start by asking questions. First, does morality, altruism, really exist or is "every good deed ultimately selfish"? Does helping others offer a survival advantage or disadvantage in an evolutionary theory? Is there evidence that morality really is innate and not the product of societal pressures or enlightened self-interest? How much variation in moral standards exists not just in the world today but throughout recorded history? Do the answers to these questions suggest a pattern that might help me judge which answer fits the pattern best? Do morals demonstrably exist in the animal kingdom? If so, are they stronger or more evident in species with strong genetic affinity to our own? If not, is there a pattern to them that might suggest something about their cause?

I could go on, but you see my point, I hope. The number of theories about where morality comes from and even what it is are many. Religions provide various explanations and human intuition often agrees with one of them. The social and historical sciences suggest other possible explanations and perhaps a persons intuition agrees with one of those instead. Perhaps none of them are what really happened or perhaps what really happened is unintuitive and we don't agree with it on those grounds. What matters is that a) all theories are on the table and b) all evidence we can get is sought after and c) we don't let our desired result cloud our judgement of the evidence and d) we don't stop inquiring.

I know this is really long, but I had a bus ride to kill. :-) Before I sign off though, the "evolutionary explanation"...

Morality does prove a survival skill in any social situation simply because other people reciprocate behavior that causes them suffering. If you treat others badly, you get kicked out of the group or killed or simply don't get to reproduce, on average. There are, of course, exceptions but "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is a definite survival trait. If cooperation is key to the survival and success of an individual in a larger social setting, then there is evolutionary selection pressure for it in even nascent tribal groups. In larger and larger cities it becomes more and more important. Civilization leads to refinement of the moral codes and societal pressures lead to the reproductive success of those who treat their fellows cooperatively.

Now, having not researched the subject in depth (I have been much more interested in the history of religion and in biology than in sociology) I will not say that explanation is correct either. I will spend some time looking into some of the questions I asked earlier though and see where the evidence leads and report back here.

You may think that this is the wrong way to go about this, all Witnesses tend to. They think you start with the Bible and then work from there. In my mind, the Bible is one explanation put forth by one small group of people among billions who have lived. If it is "the explanation", I believe the evidence of the physical world will confirm that. If it is just the sincere best guesses of the writers, the evidence will often provide alternative explanations that are a better fit.

Ah, the same old theist responses. Keep up the good fight, Ryan.

You can take several aspects of life and use them as valid proof for a belief in God.

Normally, I would creation as the first, but obiviously that won't hold water here.

Take a look at something as basic as a sense of morality. Why does every society of humans have a similar sense of morality. If we truly did evolve from lower animals, what gave us that sense of moral value that is not seen in any other animals?

Very few societies condone murder, incest, theft, etc. Why?

In the animal kingdom animals are routinely killed , and familial breeding practices are common.

These qualities that we have do not aid our survival and in many cases they hamper our survival as we are required to find more difficult routes to attain what we could easily get by killing or stealing.

We have a conscience, or a moral balance because we were created with one.

I am, in fact, challenging the fundamental beliefs of every religion but maybe not in the way you mean.

First off, it is not true that all religions will answer yes to the question "is there a god". Some major world religions posit no god (Buddhism, for instance) others a multitude of gods (i.e. Hindu).

The evidence for no gods and for many gods is equally convincing for the evidence for one monotheistic god.

Why should I take this initial supposition on faith? Or maybe, more to the point, HOW can I take this initial supposition on faith? Many world religions do not require it and I reject them out of hand as soon as I make this initial supposition. On what basis do I have an honest right to do this?

kinda beside the point, but Bigfoot is a hoax:
http://skepdic.com/bigfoot.html

Faith is not the factor when you are differentiating from one religon to another, that is a completely different issue.

In this case though, you are challenging the fundamental beliefs of every religon.

Is there a God? Every religon will say yes, but what makes Jehovah more believable then the rest - that is where the evidence comes in. However, to see the evidence you have to first accept, on faith, that there is in fact a God.

How is this a valid response?

All religions function on faith. Faith is the universal factor. If I looked at the Book of Mormon from a "spiritual" standpoint, I'd be a Mormon. If I looked upon the Vedas that way I would be a Hindu. Every sufficiently devout person of every single religion and denomination uses faith.

What is the differentiating factor?

How can you base a religious belief on faith, just like everybody else, and then claim you're right and they're wrong? By what right is your faith more valid than their faith without some sort of evidence?

If faith is all there is to it, how does Jehovah differ from Bigfoot, Shiva, Ba'al, Enlil, Mot, Allah or The Loch Ness monster? I'm dead serious. I lost my life and family because I won't condemn other beliefs as "false religion" and state that my group is "true religion" without evidence. I am not so arrogant as to think I can just "know" in my heart that I'm right and everybody else is wrong when they too use faith.

If faith is all you have to offer, you are no different that Catholics, Mormons, Shinto, Paganism or any other belief system. Also, if it is all you have to offer, you have absolutely no right to condemn anybody else anywhere for their beliefs because their basis is as firm as yours.

So, no, I'm not asking for anything other than the evidence to back up the claim that this is the one true religion. Anything that is true should be able to be shown to be so, but all things can shown to be true if one operates by faith.

No one can do this for you. You want someone to supply faith without having to use faith. That in itself is not logical. (Hebrews 11:1)

You insist on looking at the bible from a physical standpoint, when you know that is not the way it works.
(1 Corinthians 2:14-16)

The only one who can help you is Jehovah. (2 Corinthians 3:16,17)

Remember that the Pharisees demanded proof that Jesus was the promised messiah, but he refused because of thier heart condition.

Ryan - we do not want you to come back to the organization. We want you to come back to Jehovah.